Citadel

cross-posted from oldie:

@icywind1980: install CEP perhaps?
@Muric: "An evil path is under construction."

- typos(in conversations if not prompted otherwise): "scroll cae" - item in Derristy's shop; "th" - Kosh; "iimparting" - Elder Pess' description; "togethe" - City Archivist; "yon" - guard lieutenant, miss illymalie; "hereto"(missing space) - Abbess(starlight); "boytown" - training with Annaringa journal entry; "embrtaced" - the rising tide book; "nide" & "masterI" - buttery binari; "[For" - thistle; "we was" - detention superintendent in boystown; "I here"(should be "I hear") - Housing officer; "GANIBUR.leaves" & "briief" & "Ithe" & "Supernal" & "potioins" & "foood" & "repluses" - herbs of the greniavia book and their respective herbs in everhaven potions shop; "don" - one of raraley inn patrons; "youi're" - another patron; "use"(should be "us") & "resect" - billyfardle; "ofTyr"(missing space) - cleric of righteous tyr; "microthief.I" - Vendan; "ceature" - silver stalwart, slinker description; "along.!" - miss Tiarella; "look.]>"(should be "look.]") - commander Throb; "sad"(should be "said") - Elder Farley; "inclues" & "dealins" - Strange Elf Letter item description; "likey" - door in ellebren's tower oneliner; "hav" - Laramer Pinking; "stumlbed" - Selden; "mkes" - shelter stick(item) description; "copmacted excremental" - Critter name; "the suits captured They" - wonderland guest; "fay" - Queen Nemura; "viciious" - a warning for pirates book description; "exrpressing" - Tierney; "agry" - Mudhup; "femle" - some deities book description; "mortis"(should be "moster") - Pander Huff; "scandels" - agriculture officer; "Petar"(should be "Petra") - spirit of the Patriarch description; "Yes? go" - Morgana; "doesna" & "usete" & "knwo. what"(small letter) - "Mainenance Worker"(typo in the NPC name); "wod" - word of the overgod item description; "rooom" - Dalmey; "It won't be you kills me" - Aferion(end battle);
- infinite gold exploit: steal stuff from henchmen eq and tell them to go home -> they respawn with starting eq intact, then repeat. Works for sirion, ferrus, mudhup, boom boom
- multiple XP from Erlek for each conversation with him after killing sacrifice
- Nancy opens her store twice in one conversation
- you can ask servomat to teleport you to bubble store when he is not in your party, leaving you stranded(if you do not have teleport to central portal). Also why not make him like that geenie bottle from official campaign?
- miss annaringa - her 2nd line in conversation is missing end action(green text)
- buying dudleys is useless, they have no conversation, don't follow you, they start to patrol dingle's shop along with the original dudley
- can't go into argent arena protal(some invisible placeable blocks the path)
- henchmen stopped ressurecting at my side as chosen in their conversation:(
- you can spawn infinity Prudences, Mudhups and Boom Booms(probably some other?) by talking to them with full party
- floral (same as servomat mentioned before) convo option: " ,it's been great" - missing it's name
- you can have 4 henchmen at the time providing you take them in right order, despite readme saying about 3. I like this "feature" though.
- Rectus token description is messed up - says something about box of jack
- some items description is default and not entirely in consistence with what the item is and does
- Billyfardle does not acknowledge you have cleared his attic if you give the banshee shroud to your henchie(as I did immedietaly after clearing it) same for Tierney armour, damn
- reaverman conversation: I talk with him about widow Ash though I haven't even met her yet
- doors to upper and lower levels of boystown are bashable, but there is no transition in them, same for magistrate(door to upper level)
- Argent Park Attendant: multiple XP exploit in conversation
- Temple guardian is invincible, when his HP goes to 0, you can't harm(despite dealing damage) him and he is permanently "near death"
- Toro Toner(10) at Bindy's shop is only 1 not the 10 stack
- Housing officer: after giving me a room she still brags about not being able to do so
- Nominy letter item: the grammar in it makes it unreadable
- If you talk to commander Throb before Nerin testament is taken from you, you brake the quest plot and do not make any sense out of conversation that implies you do not have it in your inventory
- widow Ash has no convo back in girlstown after being rescued. Had to change ashtalkone variable
- fort orange portal: map pin says it leads to easterling ruins
- Mudhup dissapeared after death only to appear without the equipment I gave her. Circumstances: I ressurected her during the battle, had 3 hench party(I think), asked her to join and she disappears
- respawn is free, just mentioning
- conversation excerpt: "you give her houseless letter", when you give commander Throb STRANGE letter
- Bootie mentions Lucilla in her conversation, despite her not being there, I haven't spawned her, played straight PC: Handy/Mindy never left the forge
- Prudence(henchman) casts gate without proper protection
- Unless you have a token mindflayer lich and illusionist have no conversations
- thistle's house has bashable door upstairs but there is no transition
- Cally speaks (at rogue retreat) as if she met me at a disco
- Penther at prison say something about her worktable that could explode
- Hirt remains had 4 rings: 2 orleys and 2 charred(doubled the rings somehow?)
- in rehearsal temple(dingles) doors are openable but have no transition
- Ibbas tells me I should infrom him about dingle domain, when I have already reported to him
- Penther execution journal entry says something about knowing Abercrombie Nominy, although I have not yet even met her
- After giving him the ring back, he speaks the conversation that was before giving him the ring: "where is she"
- somehow Prudence ressurectable body got destroyed and turned into unressurectable remains with few of her items(not all)
- breach control placeable: each click spawns Penther, she doesn't disappear after
- after red rift the abbess talks like I still had pariah mark, when I had it already removed
- sulky tarhide talks about little agnes even after the quest is over
- Nominy quest is broken: after Outer Easterling Emmett is nowhere to be found(decided to destroy are using portal to Morzei), had to resort to console commands, in order for the meer to acknowledge my success
- Emmett ghost except one(who talks about sacrifice arriving) are already hostile, whereas they shouldn't be as they appear to have conversations in toolset?
- when Dalmey tries to join me I already had 4 henchmen. He didn't join me as 5th hench(hardcoded), nor could I make him rejoin me as I couldn't reach his "henchman conversation" to dispel him then make him join when I had only 3 of henchmen from the previous part. Had to reload. More over after falling in battle and being resurrected he had no "death" conversation and still wouldn't join me. Another reload in order to save him in the battle.
- most monster descriptions are lacking
- when first met overgod technohead is lightly injured, possible faction issue(he might have thought something?)
- found no Rilla in Descent as walkthrough says I should, but maybe I just missed her? Anyway couldn't check cause there is no way back to the descent from old city plaza.
- Couldn't do the underland wonderland dungeon, I was only 28 level after all possible quests and before doing descent. Might have been caused by the fact that I had 4 henchies throughout most of the game, where the readme states I should be able to hire only 3? The more the merrier I guess.
- Serabobble, Esther and other "unique" moster: if it's an NPC, one of its kind, than why there is more than one in different places?

Anyway, there are lots of bugs, but the module itself is really long(took me almost 3 weeks of playing on and off).
It was an enjoyable romp anyway.

Also all of this is for good/neutral path.

Hello! Are You, starliner00 the author of this module? Or should I transfer it to Migrate Wizard (placeholder account)?

PROS:

-Epic scale in terms of hours (easily more than 60) and level range (6 - 36)

-Unique, detailed world and atmsophere

-Broad and deep story with many intertwined plot arcs

-Challenging, varied combat

-Original music

CONS:

-Incomplete journal entires and conversation trees sometimes confuse the complex story

-A few battles are more tedious than challenging

The first time I tried to play this module I hated it and gave up on it early.  I do not remember what prompted me to take a second chance on this module, but I did.  I have completed three play-throughs now and I love this module.  Citadel has great depth of story, challenging combat, and spans many, many hours of play that take a charcter from 6th to ~36th level.

What made it difficult for me to initially enjoy the module is that it completely discards all of the official game's standards of power balance, challenge rating, and basic fair play.  Just about every enemy you face is an Impossible challenge.  Your Impossible enemies do not face you one at a time, but swarm you in groups of 10s and 20s or worse.  Each group of enemies includes a variety of class types who use their abilities within teamwork.  And your enemies will use against you every overpowered ability and every power-gaming cheap trick any player has ever dreamed up.

It does help that the player character has access to heaps of magical equipment that would would make any Dungeon Master named Monty Hall blush.  Nevertheless, many battles require multiple re-loads to win.  The length and style of battles greatly diminish the element of chance- one or several lucky or unlucky dice rolls rarely make much of a difference.  Each battle is winnable with the right tactics.  When I finally figured out how to win some of the toughest battles, I felt pretty smart like I really accomplished something.

Loads of combat are part of the module.  The story is the other part.  There is a very rich, deep, and original story with multiple plot arcs that diverge and come back together.  It in no way feels like a re-telling of a classic fantasy plot with the classic quests.  The world is unique, detailed, and aesthetically appealing.  The original music helps create a special atmosphere.

The biggest flaw of the module is that some of it remains unfinished, particularly when it comes to conversation trees and journal entries.  There are so many interwining plots that it is very important to rely on journal entries to keep track of them all, but unfortunately quite a few journal entries are incomplete or not properly updated.  Sometimes NPCs involved in quests just stop talking because some inobvious condition has not yet been met to advance the quest- and they will not tell you what that condition is or remind you what you should be doing.  None of the incomplete journal entries or conversations are game-breaking.  When one quest seems to dead-end, just go do another quest or make the rounds with other important NPCs, and eventually the current dead-end quests get back on track.  (The module has an included Walkthrough too.)

If you start the game with an evil character, the initial series of quests will send you on the "evil path" to gain entry to the Citadel.  It appears that the evil path just simply dead-ends quickly.  This is the only game-breaking flaw I encountered with this module.  That means you cannot create an evil character to play the module.  (It is possible that a character can have an alignment shift to evil once gaining entry to the Citadel, and complete the modeul without problem, but I do not know for sure.)

While many of the combats are challenging, there are as few that are just tedious.  Fighting some singular bosses gets to be a slow battle of attrition that I can literally leave unattended for ten minutes.

Because the power level of foes and equipment so significantly outpace character level, sometimes it feels like having the right equipment overshadows building the right character.

Overall, the module does so much so well that the flaws are easily forgiveable.  I give it the highest rating not because it is perfect, but because it provides so much fun.

If you play, read the introductory remarks about the module in the Walkthrough document (the first two-and-a-half pages before "BEGINNING TO PLAY").  An in-module tip recommends you play on Normal difficulty rather than Hardcore or higher.  Starting at 6th level is fine, but definitely no higher than 9th.  Any good or neutral class should be viable- evil characters cannot advance out of the beginning area to the rest of the module.  Characters whose abilities do not overly depend on level relative to opponent, and are not commonly replicated by items, are probably preferrable.  I have completed the module with a Rogue/Fighter/Shadowdancer, Monk (unarmed, no other classes), and Fighter/Weaponmaster/Dwarven Defender.

quick summary : this module, which might alternatively be called 'battle of the mutant monks' where half the opponents are actually monks in disguise [just so you really get the point of how amazingly tedious combats vs. opponents with 'empty body' can be...], offers a tremendous amount of playtime and a truly engaging story -- but not without several serious drawbacks. over all, while i can't say i clearly didn't like this module, i can't say that i really enjoyed it either.

'citadel' is billed as an epic saga for characters of at least 6th level. there's a warning on the original vault page stating that if you start with a character 15th-level or higher, the module will immediately spawn all sorts of nasties and kill you. don't let that give you the impression your character will finish at a low level, however, since leveling was very fast. i started with a 14th-lvl cleric coming in from SoU and finished at 32nd level.

i almost quit the module out of frustration shortly after starting it. it doesn't matter whether it's shop or drop, most of the items in the game can't be used if your character's level falls within the recommended 6-14 range and you play with ILR on, since they're too powerful for pre-epic characters. similar problem for henchies -- they're initially equipped with gear only suitable for epic characters, which they then can't re-equip if they die and are subsequently raised.

the reason for the über weapons became clear soon enough -- you need them to survive the combats. if you play with ILR on, combats are ridiculously imbalanced. this problem is exacerbated by the builder's tendency to have opponents spawn in out of nowhere literally right on top of you. bringing in a higher-level character most likely wouldn't improve the odds ; the reason there are so many opponents spawned is because the builder tends to layer several encounter triggers on top of each other, so even a 'normal'-difficulty spawn will hit you with 2 or 3 times as many opponents as you'll reasonably be able to handle. my 14th-lvl cleric and his henchies often found themselves trounced by being suddenly surrounded by a group of ~cr20 opponents using epic-level weapons. often, these occured on a wide, flat area leaving little room for strategy. in one case, there were about 40 cr15+ opponents surrounding us, all equipped with epic gear. even the rats were tough -- 300hp+, equipped with +6 teeth, 2d8 negative damage bonus, disease and poison. very strange !

the 'solution' for me, such as it was, was to turn off ILR. i don't like to do that because i feel pretty strongly that ILR is there for a good reason, but there are so few modules that span such a long level run and end in the mid-epic levels, rather than tossing this one aside, i disabled ILR and re-equipped. most of the combats weren't too difficult after that.

ILR aside, the other problem w/running into opponents w/CR's in the 70's, 80's, or higher [as was typically the case from about 2/3 through the module] is that opponents' save bonuses were often around +35/+40, so they always saved except on a 1, rendering most attack spells and special attacks superfluous. so over all, i didn't feel like the combat situations in this module were well thought out.

other issues :

- although fast leveling may be a great idea for some, i don't enjoy it. at one point, i leveled twice in the space of 5 minutes, as i was awarded a quest reward of 50,000xp literally moments after levelling.

- the use of custom tilesets is fine, as long as they're complete. there were frustrating tileset issues with several of the maps in this module.

- i question the builder's choice of music. i think it's great to find custom music for a module, but i would've preferred something more professional sounding, if not more 'period'.

- although there were often different choices for various 'points of view' given to the player in dialogs, it was sometimes difficult to tell which were meant to be mild-mannered, as opposed to bitchy or evil. to give a fictitious example exaggerated for illustration, the options 'you're an asshole!', 'could you stop acting like such an asshole?', and 'if you don't stop being an asshole, i'll be forced to sever your head from your body' are not different enough from each other to reflect different ethoi unambiguously and, imo, don't offer anything genuinely mild-mannered or diplomatic. however, you may not have this issue if you decide to run a character who is snarky, bitchy, or an asshole.

- the story started to break down about 2/3 through the module, most likely because quest variables weren't always managed well. dialogs began to refer to yet-undiscovered facts disclosed in other dialogs or quests that hadn't been completed yet, which was very confusing.

bugs :

- the henchmen all have custom behaviour. i like this, in principle, but it becomes a hindrance when the implementation is as awful as it is in this module. some of the usual basics are overridden [such as an npc with HiPS not using it, or not having the option to tell your dex-based henchman -not- to go into stealth]. henchmen do come when called -- for one round, then once again do what they want anyway, like running into battle unprepared, thereby getting themselves promptly killed. in addition, any time a henchman died, his inventory was unceremoniously dumped onto the ground, making it a royal pain to get everything back in place once raised. finally, the bleed-out system for henchmen is broken ; the 'dead' henchie complains that s/he needs to be healed, but neither healing spells nor healing kits will heal him, and the 'dead' henchman doesn't respond to raise dead or resurrection either.

- the item scripts aren't correctly written ; you activate an item whenever you acquire it.

- the following quests don't close, even though all steps have been satisfied and the pc is rewarded for the quest being finished -
-- 'onigin ruins'
-- 'shallan's letters'
-- 'a meeting with lord morgrave and lady storm'

- [**SPOILER**] sulky tarhide continues to alert about the little girl's quest even after it's over.

- [**SPOILER**] nearing the end of the penther quest, i am to go to the jail and give her the good news. unfortunately, if you originally let her go for some reason [e.g. if your character is chaotic], penther isn't there.  ##dm_spawncreature.

- [**SPOILER**] in the final battle, the widow ash is supposed to appear once the area has been cleared. if you take the portal from fort degelden rather than speaking to gloomy petra and letting her teleport you, this won't happen ; you clear the area and are left scratching your head. the only solution is to enter debug mode and jump back to fort degelden where you can talk to gloomy petra and have her teleport you back.


on the other hand, there are many positive things to say about the module.

- the story was truly epic. it was interesting, complex, well-conceived, and offered many unique points of view.

- the length of the module is just as epic. i didn't count, but i'm sure i played well over 100 hours.

- npc's typically had well-developed character that made them feel more 'real'.

- the fact that there are henchmen at all is, imo, a big plus, since there are a lot more modules out there where the builder hasn't taken the time to incorporate them. an even bigger plus is the wide range of multi-classing options given to each of them.

- the quests are frequently not the style you'll typically expect in a module. even 'fed-ex' quests sometimes took on a unique flavour.

- finally, the builder added lots of unique little touches [sound effects to log entries, many individual npc's with 'character', ...] that made the module more interesting and enjoyable to play.


to sum up, if you like a really good story, you have a character with lots of über gear [or are yearning to get some] and you play with ILR turned off, you're flexible w/regard to bugs, and you're comfortable using the console commands, then you may enjoy this module.

I am one of the authors of this module; had thought the Vault was shut down and have not been able to play it for several years. I've bought the new NWN and will see what's going on with the mod.

Points.

1. Only the good/neutral paths for the mod were ever finished; when we last worked on the game, no one could enter the evil path. We had a very ambitious plan for it that simply took too much time. Life took over. (We never took the game into finished status because of that, so players always knew the mod was unfinished in terms of the evil path. I'm sorry that information got lost.)

2. There were not nearly this many errors in the version that I last played, nor were there incomplete journal entries so far as I remember. So I am sorry to hear that these things have cropped up.

3. The whole mod contains nearly a half million words, making it simply enormous to keep track of. It's certainly possible we left in some inconsistent item descriptions and such. But there were only three of us and we just got tired. None of us were really coders or computer people, other than users; we simply played with the toolset till we got things to work. So broken variables and the like are no doubt due to our lack of experience. But it was amazing fun to do, and, at one time, to play.

4. We supported the mod for 3 years, then had to move on to other things. I'm amazed it's still playable at all.

5. We wanted a high-magic world with very hard combat. The walk-through makes this clear. The mod was intended as a complicated story that would also appeal to dungeon crawlers and that would sustain replay.

I'm actually thrilled to see this again because I don't have a computer that can play the old version of the game and wasn't really sure I had all the files to make the mod run any more. I have no idea whether I can dig into the scripting engine again and figure out what I did (I was the main scripter) and why and how to fix it. And I'm pretty sure we'll never be able to complete the evil path. We wanted a totally separate line of story for evil players that enabled them to destroy the whole city; not a fake evil path where all the choices turned out to be the same. Since the main mod took two-three years to do, I'm pretty sure we'll never have time to put that much into it again - and that's about how long it would have taken.

At any rate, it's great to see the mod again, though if all these errors have cropped up in it, I don't recommend anybody play it.

JUST FOR THE RECORD: The authors have not touched this module in several years. So recent updates do not refer to us. Though I'm grateful people took the time to upload it and to fiddle with it.

Further note from the authors: We DON'T recommend playing this mod at this time. I played the beginning of it last night and it needs a thorough going over. Creature behavior has changed; all the animals on the opening maps are rushing the PC, seeing PC from pretty far away, and it's overwhelming. It appears they see farther than they used to or else some setting in the mod has been changed. The scripts are working in the convos there but there's no telling about later. We're talking about reworking this to be compatible with the enhanced edition and with the GOG edition of the game, but that will take some time. And I am trying to re-establish our authorship with the Vault and to make sure we can control the uploads. So, for now, if you play the mod, you're not playing a version that we endorse, though you're welcome to make your own choice, of course.