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*New Vault Voting Standards*

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Werelynx
Werelynx's picture
*New Vault Voting Standards*
The New Neverwinter Voting Standards:
 
10 - A Masterpiece, Genuinely Groundbreaking
9 - Outstanding, a Must Have
8 - Excellent, Recommended to Anyone
7 - Very Good, Deserves a Look
6 - Good, Qualified Recommendation
5 - Fair, Solid yet Unremarkable 
4 - Some Merit, Requires Improvements
3 - Poor Execution, Potential Unrealized
2 - Very Little Appeal, Bugged or Incomplete.
1 - Not Recommended to Anyone, Dangerous or Harmful.
 
This standard of voting is now site-wide for NWN1, NWN2 and Iceblink.
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Trixter
Trixter's picture

I mostly give out tens... just want to be a positive person.

And what a masterpiece is to some may be different to others.

80's remembered:  http://www.meetup.com/Phoenix-Jem-tunes-toons/messages/boards/


Feel free to sign up and post.

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verilazic
verilazic's picture

That's why we vote. If everyone had the same opinion, we would just stop counting after the first vote. ;)

 

Thanks for posting the guidelines, it's nice to have just a few words to go off of rather than only a number.

-Verilazic/Jadyn

"Do you have to go around being calm, reasonable and sensible all the time? It's really offensive. Please stop."

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Werelynx
Werelynx's picture

Carcerian's idea :D

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Sawark
Sawark's picture

Hmmm. I would change it a little... And why, you'll ask, won't you? ;)
I'll explain...

Firstly - 6 for 'Good, Qualified Recommendation' is quite low in my opinion. Note, that 6 is just a half point above the middle of the scale 1-10 (and 5 is the same amount below the middle), so 6 should be adequate vote for something slightly above average (eg. 'Fair, Solid'), while 'Good, Qualified Recommendation' should rather mean something well above average. Thus 7 would be more appropriate for 'Good', I suppose.

Further: I think that 'Qualified Recommendation' would be more approppriate to define 'Very Good', while somewhat enigmatic 'Deserves a Look' - more suitable for something 'Good'.

And further yet: 'Outstanding, a Must Have' or 'Excellent, Recommended to Anyone'... - I don't see any significant difference in both of these terms, therefore why not combine them into a single point on the scale?

Thus my propositions of changes in the Voting Standards are:

10 - A Masterpiece, Genuinely Groundbreaking
9 - Outstanding, Excellent, Recommended to Anyone
8 - Very Good, Qualified Recommendation
7 - Good, Deserves a Look
6 - Fair, Solid
5 - Average, Unremarkable
4 - Some Merit, Requires Improvements
3 - Poor Execution, Potential Unrealized
2 - Very Little Appeal, Bugged or Incomplete
1 - Not Recommended to Anyone, Dangerous or Harmful

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Carcerian
Carcerian's picture

+1

Additional Ideas:

Maby work in were 5 might say something like "works as described" if possible, seems if it works and is up to date deserves an average 5, im all fairness

7 = "recommended"

6 =  "usefull' 

4 = "needs updating/minor work"

3 = "possibly useful/needs major work"

Also old voting rules only 8.0+ votes counted towards hall of fame status

required votes were 20 for nwn1 ...

required votes were 10 for nwn2...

(last check, tho were higher before nwn2, 25+ for NWN1 hof)

so maby 8 could include "fameworthy"... or similar terminology...

(or at least find a way to add voting hall of fame gudelines in some form...)

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Berliad
Berliad's picture

Are we stuck with a 1-10 system?  I know that was pretty much unchangable at the old vault when we asked Maximus about using a differnet system for nwn2.  

My personal feeling, though, is that 10 voting categories is far too granular.  If we operate under the assumption that most people just want to send praise with their vote to support a project, rather than play critic, then I think a score of 10 is too broad.   I'd far prefer something with a smaller range.  1-5 stars, like on amazon?  Thumbs Up/Thumbs down?  Or even just an "endorse" button like on Nexus.

I know the voting system isn't the priority right now, because the focus is justifiably on The Grand Migration.  But it's an important part of how people found content at the old Vault, so it might be worth discussing.  Unless, of course, this has already been done, and decisions have already been made!  If that's the case, I'll just do whatever you folks tell me to. :)

-B

 

Blog | @berliad | Adventurers' Club | Hero's Path Module Lists [NWN1] [NWN2] | FRW Character Creator

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leo_x
leo_x's picture

FWIW, I posted my two cents over here which seem to be in line with yours, plus some links debating the topic.

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Rolo Kipp
Rolo Kipp's picture

First, I'll point out that the current 10-point system is like the old vault because we need it in place to preserve the old votes. It's primary purpose, in my view, is to preserve the old system until we can overhaul it completely. It has *always* been my intention to overhaul the voting and rating system.

Second, in support of that last statement, I'll refer you to a lively discussion about alternatives. ;-)

Third, even when it's been done (not yet!) and decisions have been made (not yet!), it is *still* worth discussing. Being a community site means we can change with our demographics without considering the business model so slavishly.

Right now, Vault karma is basically monopoly money, but I envision it becoming a commodity of respect. I envision Vk being used to give weight to long-time contributors and popular posters. I envision it being something worthwhile on your profile. I also see it as a good crowd-sourcing way of discovering good moderators :-)


Rolo Kipp
 
From Dreamguard on Needlespire, The Gemworld of Amethyst
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Sachie
Sachie's picture

I took a glance at the lively discussion that you linked to... and I don't like the idea of a finite number of VK points where you can only get more by uploading a project and having people vote on it thus giving their points away to you.  It really does devalue the opinions of people who play modules but do not create things because they will have no way to earn more VK and vote beyond the initial allotment they get.  Even among creators, the popular creators with Hall of Fame modules are going to have way more VK than everyone who was on the list of modules that worthwhile but overlooked.  I'd rather not vote on something because it is my choice to not vote than not vote because I used up all my voting allotment and have no way to get more.

 

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Rolo Kipp
Rolo Kipp's picture

I agree in general to that, but not in particular.

Specifically, "...because I used up all my voting allotment and have no way to get more."

For something like this to work we have to build a complete karma economy, much like Ralph Koster's great essay on mmorpg economics, with both faucets and sinks. That is, there has to ways for every type of member to participate both in earning karma and in spending it.

So there would *have* to be ways to earn karma even for those lowly, inconsequential unimportant *players* ;-P (Seriously, as a side note, I prefer player feedback, in whatever form, over nearly anything else. These are who we build things for and who consume our end product.)

So, to the above only way to generate karma is by contributing a project, add the karma available for participating on the forums, for comenting on projects, for adding reviews and media and tutorials. And building new skins for the site ;-)

Specifically, a new skin is worth 500 Vk. A new patch is worth 100Vk.

Articles (including Walk-throughs, Reviews, Tutorials and Fan Fiction) are worth 15 Vk

Projects are worth 5Vk + 1VK for registered users visiting (1 per user per day)

Migrating a project (a large but finite potential) is worth 5 Vk each

Media (reviews with screenshots or youtube video, or a podcast) are worth 5VK

Blog entries are worth 5 Vk

A new forum topic is worth 5 Vk

Comments are worth 1 Vk

If I can find another way to reward player involvement, I'll add that. If we want to encourage something, we'll offer a larger reward. Discourage something, we'll drop it...

You know... adjust things? ;-)

Maybe we'll even have contests or something... what's the limit, anyway?

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Sir Adril
Sir Adril's picture

If I can find another way to reward player involvement, I'll add that. If we want to encourage something, we'll offer a larger reward.

Uh... maybe start a module playing club? Everyone in the club downloads, plays, and discusses a randomly chosen module for the week/month/whatever, and everyone who signs up in that month's thread and then either downloads/rates/comments on the relevant module gets additional bonus Vk for participating in the module playing club? Kind of like a book club, but for modules?

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Berliad
Berliad's picture

These sound like great ideas.  I like the idea of Karma being used to rate projects (which, I think, might be something you're talking about?  I saw it in another thread).  Karma sounds like a great idea as a way to reward module builders (and players, for that matter).  One other additional way to gain karma that you might consider (if it's feasible) might be simply tenure on the boards.  For each month you get a point, each year you get a bonus 10 points, or something like this?  The points could be added upon login?

I've spent a lot of time on a play by post forum the last few years.  They do a karma system sort of like this.  You don't lose karma for rewarding someone else's post, but you can provide more karma to someone if you have, in turn, received more karma.  That way, new folks can't upset the balance too much.  But if someone does a lot of awesomeness, though, they can get a decent karma total pretty quickly, which, in turn, allows them to pay it forward.  It seemed like a decent model.

Anyway, I'm not trying to drive the ship here, just offering a few thoughts.

-B

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Berliad
Berliad's picture

Ooo, I *love* that idea.  Even without the karma system, I think that sounds like a blast.  

One suggestion: I think it might be better to allow the module to be based on builder submission (or player nomination?  or both?) rather than randomness.  Sort of like the old review guild, but with (hopefully) many people playing your module, giving feedback, discussing, etc.  What a great idea!

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Sawark
Sawark's picture

"One other additional way to gain karma that you might consider (if it's feasible) might be simply tenure on the boards. For each month you get a point, each year you get a bonus 10 points, or something like this? The points could be added upon login?"

Very good idea. Only 1 suggestion from my side: I think +1VK a week (instead a month) would be more adequate. It would not be too much in my opinion, given that +1VK you get for a single comment (such as this very one you are reading now) - thus user, who spent all his points and very rarely takes part in any discussions, would need roughly 2 months to regain enough points to be able to vote 8 on a very good module... Appropriate 'reward' for merely watching / downloading / playing. ;)

 

 

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Rolo Kipp
Rolo Kipp's picture

Actually, I was thinking of this as one of the "faucets" of the karma economy.

But I was thinking of +1vk (per day) for signing in and checking the boards. 

The idea being that someone who did nothing but check the boards and post occaisionally would earn Vk to weight their opinions - that by reliably visiting, we reward their keeping up to date by giving them a heavier weight than a drive-by.

 

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Proleric
Proleric's picture

For what it's worth, I tend to agree with the "Amazon have it right" camp.

1-5 with comments is simple, but meets all practical needs when displayed as a histogram.

The old vault history could be converted to that scale.

Averages are too easily skewed by outliers (unusual votes) - the median is more helpful, if a graph is too difficult.

The problem with the proposed standard is that it was largely, but not wholly, ignored, tending to result in higher scores for very old contributions.

 

 

NWN and DAO adventures at http://proleric.com/

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Zwerkules
Zwerkules's picture

One other additional way to gain karma that you might consider (if it's feasible) might be simply tenure on the boards. For each month you get a point, each year you get a bonus 10 points, or something like this? The points could be added upon login?

 

That is a very good idea which will reward long time users of this site.

 

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Werelynx
Werelynx's picture

+1 to that

I would go for overlooked modules fo course (small number of votes and small download count)

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Sir Adril
Sir Adril's picture

There seems to be a fair bit of interest in this idea. I'm not sure how much time I personally would have to dedicate to it - I'm a flaky person, but I can definitely help set up the first module playing club (Adventure Party?) event, and a set of starter questions to help prompt discussion. I will be looking for someone to take over the running of the club though.

I think polls might be the way to go to decide which module gets done for each module playing club event. Polling would be open for the entirety of the previous module's discussion period, and close at the end of the discussion period, with the poll for the next set of proposed modules going up when the discussion period begins for the new module.

In order to give people plenty of time to play and discuss, I think a monthly or bi-monthly schedule might work best, but I'm definitely interested in everyone else's opinions on this, and everything else to do with the module playing club.

I definitely agree with the idea of trying to select overlooked modules - it's a great way to get a bit more exposure for newer/non HoF modules. I'm not sure what the cutoff should be for what should be eligible and what shouldn't, again, I'm open to suggestions.

If this idea goes ahead, a forum somewhere (perhaps in the Communities board?) would probably really help keep the module playing club organized, and keep it from cluttering up other parts of the board. It might be worth creating NWN1 and NWN2 subforums within that forum, though that won't really be critical until there have been several meetings.

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Werelynx
Werelynx's picture

AC - Adventure Club :P

I think the length of the "challenge" should be different depending on the length of module discussed. We could have 2 weeks for <1h modules, a month for <6h modules and two months for the long ones.

When Rolo sets up a new forums for us we will make some module propositions then a poll and vote away :D

We could distinct each topic by starting the name with either NWN1 or NWN2.

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Berliad
Berliad's picture

Count me in! And +1 to Adventure Club. I think the connection to book clubs in the name is important so it's obvious what we're doing.

I'm happy to help out with the administration/organization of this. My suggestion is that once we have a home on a forum and are set to go, we can post an announcement on the vault's front page and ask for nominations for a week or so. Then, we can vote, pick a mod, set a deadline, and start playing!

Should we try to run a nwn1 and a nwn2 club simultaneously? Or take turns? Or just go with whatever gets more votes in a given cycle?

How fun! I'm excited about this.

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Rolo Kipp
Rolo Kipp's picture

New for... huh?

Wait, what? You want a new forum?! Do you have any idea how much those *cost*!? < zippo >

Shhh, I'm negotiating here. < poorly >

Spoilsport.

What do you want it called?

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Sachie
Sachie's picture

I'll also join in on the module Adventure Club.  However until there are way more modules, I think we should do like one NWN and one NWN2 module per month that way you can participate regardless of which your preferences is.  Although if we're going to tackle an entire series that spans over multiple modules then we should plan for more than one month for all of it but not a month for each part as it could drag out to half a year (if not longer) in a few cases.... don't think anyone wants that.

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Rolo Kipp
Rolo Kipp's picture
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Berliad
Berliad's picture

Hooray!  Thanks! -B

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verilazic
verilazic's picture

As an aside, I'd like to note that most economists today agree that it's a good idea to always have a modest rate of inflation, never zero, or deflation. What that means is that even in real economies, the overall supply of currency should be increasing, albiet at a managed rate. I can't remember exactly what Koster said in that article, but in general I think it's a good idea to have a bit more faucets than sinks.

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verilazic
verilazic's picture

I've also said elsewhere that I don't think every form of praise should be linked together into one system or form of currency. Better to have a couple different ways of giving and receiving credit for things that don't directly affect each other.

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Sir Adril
Sir Adril's picture

Inflation at a moderate level is okay, up to a point.

To give an example I've got actual experience of, I started playing a virtual ranching game several years ago. All new accounts were given $100,000 in virtual money to start. A competition capable (and untrained!) horse in that game, at that time, cost no less than $50,000, and training that horse would cost in excess of $100,000, with no guarantee it would be competition ready (to be competition ready and competitive, you were looking at around $500,000 in training). Each turn (or virtual day), you had to pay for feed for the virtual horse you owned. As a new account holder, you were literally having to slave yourself out to other experienced players by creating custom art for them in order to even play the game at all. If new accounts had been issued starting currency that kept up with inflation, it would not have been quite so inbalanced.

If new accounts are not credited a number of points to jump them up to keep up with inflation, even a low or moderate inflation system breaks down for those at the bottom (it creates a 99 percent vs 1 percent problem - the 1 percent who've been around for years are ultimately the ones who have the economic power to drive market prices, and that in general means the 99 percent of new folks can't afford anything). In that regard, it's better to have a zero inflation economy.

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Werelynx
Werelynx's picture

New accounts getting free karma: Billy, the troll registers 5 accounts and gets 5X100Vk. Then he grants this karma to project made by his 6th account (idea proposed on those forums) and buys some gold ribbons or whatever making his trolling module reach top mods in no time.

We would need cooldown period like a month until the karma gets in if we are to implement that. Trolls will be spotted in a month for sure :)

(unless they are mutant trolls that developed brains and patience)

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Sir Adril
Sir Adril's picture

Absolutely, you have a good point, and I do agree with a cooldown period to prevent abuses by trolls. Better would be a zero inflation system, but that would be next to impossible to implement.

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verilazic
verilazic's picture

Part of the reason for inflation is an increasing population too. So giving free points to a new member makes sense. What about giving free points when new content is contributed? In other words, if there becomes more things to "spend" the currency on, increase the amount of currency available?

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Werelynx
Werelynx's picture

Voting up posts (or down) should cost Vk - that's a possible sink.

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Sir Adril
Sir Adril's picture

Well, as it stands at the moment, you get a number of Vk for uploading content, starting a new thread, or posting in a thread - you get a lot more for contributing content than for posting on the forums, great for encouraging new content, but not necessarily so great for people who play and review a lot.

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prwo

Honestly, I doubt that many voters will heed that list when voting at all.
Also, one might argue that it's too complicated for the average user to follow.

Keep it small and simple and reduce the available options to 5.

Also the list should be presented somewhere close to the voting bar (e.g. in a tool-tip) or no one will realize the system.

An alternative would be the "I like this" or "endorse" system. It completely avoids the havoc of a criteria catalogue.

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Werelynx
Werelynx's picture

This of course is a sane idea - when the voting will get changed the list will have to be changed.

Mouseover is a nice thing but maybe it should go into requests "what do we want" thread.

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