Planned Discussion Start Date: 11 August, 2014
Our first Adventurer's Club modules for Neverwinter Nights 2 are Humble Beginnings & Lowena. Lowena was the module that was actually selected by the vote, but Humble Beginnings is a 10-minute module that is referenced in Lowena. Therefore, I recommend that we play both! Our discussion, however, will focus primarily on Lowena.
Humble Beginnings was nominated by Sir Adril:
Game: NWN2
Module Name & Author: Humble Beginnings by Jezla9
Neverwinter Vault Link: http://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn2/module/humble-beginnings
Character starting level & info: Starting Level 1, ending Level 3-4
Estimated hours of play (if available): ~10 minutes
Why submitted: Short, with little to no combat, this module is the first in a series that is meant to be played with other adventures interspersed to bring you up to the correct level.
Lowena was nominated by its author, Jezla9:
1. NWN2
2. Lowena by Jezla9
3. http://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn2/module/lowena
4. Level 5 (new characters will be leveled up on entry)
5. 1 hour
6. It has the same virtues as Humble Beginnings for being short with largely optional combat. Despite the length, it has four possible endings, some use for skills, and is (if I may say so) very polished.
The plan will be to play these modules and start the discussion next week. If you don't get done in time, don't sweat it; chime in whenever you catch up! Some questions to spur discussion are below. Feel free to answer all, any, or none of them, and feel free to add your own!
Some Discussion Questions (more specific ones to be added as we play):
- What did you think were the highlights of the module?
- What aspects of the module surprised you? Made you think?
- How did you find the story overall?
- What did you think of the atmosphere and ambiance (including visuals, audio, etc)?
- What did you think of the combat?
- Did you encounter any bugs? Or other aspects of the module that could be improved?
- There is one major decision in Humble Beginnings. What did your character opt to do and why?
- How did you handle the major choice in Lowena? What did your character opt to do and why?
What about if we finish early and want to start talking about it while it's still fresh in mind?
11th is the proposed date to start discussion, but if you want to put your thoughts on paper now.. then do so.
Yeah, agreed; I don't think we want to be overly rigid with this. But we also don't want folks feeling like they will miss out if they don't make time right away to play these modules.
I'm probably going to hold off on chiming in until the 11th, but I don't think there's a problem with people posting before then. Playing through both of these modules only will take an evening or so, depending on how much time you spend rolling up your character. Therefore, depending on when someone has a free evening, they might be ready to begin discussion long before next Monday!
I'll wait until at least one other person reports finishing.
I used one of my existing level 1 characters, so character creation was no delay.
Since they're short, I'd recommend playing at least Lowena more than once. There are various ways to resolve the dilemma, which lead to four possible endings.
I recommend that, too, especially for the purpose of discussion. If you save beforehand, it doesn't take long to see them all.
I completed both this morning with Lowena ending in the fall of the castle.
I took a druid/ranger character but the class was somewhat irrelevant as there was only the bandits to fight in my run through and I did those as a first level character because I forgot to level up in the inn. I chose, in this run, not to go up to the wyvern nest but went directly to talk with the captain and the good Lady Lowena. Because of that, the longest part of the module was leveling up :)
I thought in the past I had played Humble beginnings but I had not so that was interesting. I know that is not the focus of this discussion so I will not dwell but my only thought was, given the length, a few more roleplaying options in the text would have been nice to have.
Lowena I have played before and I enjoy it. There are lots of endings so it is worthy of a reply but there is not too much role playing outside of the Lowena captain convo so the early part feels constrained compared with the story development after the meet with the captain. The areas are nice enough to wander round but the focus is on the story gates, there is little to explore.
My overall feeling was that I enjoyed the module. I like the choice focused gifts at the end of each and I think there is enough variety in this short module set to use them as a lv 5 - 6 character preparation area. A couple of side quests would not hurt and could be slotted in and a little more roleplaying for the conversations aside from the key ones that develop the end game choices.
I have never discussed a module before, so I am interested to see which way this goes.
PJ
Humble Beginnings
I started with Humble Beginnings, with a 1st level cleric. I generally prefer arcane casters, but when it's low level, and I don't know what to expect, and I doubt a party will be provided, I go with cleric for the ability to wear armour. The description didn't recommend any particular class. In general, I hate having to play a low-level D&D game without a party, since I prefer to play cloth-wearing casters, but in this first module it didn't matter since you don't need to fight.
My first run through Humble Beginnings was no trouble, since I gave the goblins the benefit of the doubt, though I was concerned that when they ran out of the cave I might end up finding the little girl's dead body out there in revenge. But there was no sign of them out there, and it was no little girl, though I suppose I should have expected that when her teddy bear turned out to be a real bear.
Not being a rogue, I bashed down the locked door and found some minor treasure. When I played it a second time, I attacked the goblins (or rather allowed the bear to attack the goblins while I stood back at a safe distance) thinking there might be a key or some explanation of the treasure, but there was none. The sorceress seemed pleased no matter which choice I made. I liked the stormy weather and the fact that things were given descriptions.
Lowena
I have many of my characters saved at different levels, so I imported a higher level version of the same cleric to play Lowena. I picked one that was higher level than the suggested level, knowing I was probably in for another solo experience, and solo combat is not enjoyable to me at all. This was the right decision, considering the combat at the beginning.
I liked starting out at an inn, and talking to people around there. Though there wasn't much for people to say, I did get some atmosphere with racial tensions between humans and dwarves. There was a convenient shop, and it was a safe place to rest and prepare my spells.
Some of the dialogue assumed I was playing as a man. "Captain Horatio Argyle is much like yourself. A capable man," said Lord Garm as he addressed a woman. Also, the sorceress kissed me.
At any rate, the plot here was one of investigation, which is always a fun kind of questing, and especially well-suited to a lower level solo effort. I have to say that before I went on to the town where the caravan sent me, I explored a little and took the area transition to the road to the stronghold of the neutral knightly order, but when I saw dead bodies there, I returned to the first area and headed into town, for fear of sequence-breaking the quest.
I liked the little touches like the guard at the gate closing the gate after I went in, and the fact that the caravan moves from down the road to inside the keep while you're talking to Lord Garm. The city seems to be a peaceful place with generally happy people, though they live in the shadow of strained relations with a neighbouring nation.
My first playthrough, I went straight to the Knights' place without exploring the road that led off in the opposite direction, and spoke to the two lovers, and told them I wouldn't interfere with their decision for the sake of love. To my surprise, Lord Garm threw himself off of a cliff when he found out, because this meant that there would be no alliance and their enemies would attack! I was dismayed to find that the decision resulted in the innocent townsfolk getting slaughtered by their hostile neighbours. The sorceress was pleased!
I reloaded and this time explored the other road and found the wyvern nests and a man who gave a little background info. Then I went to the lovers and convinced Lowena to go through with the marriage for the sake of peace and the security of the townsfolk. All was peaceful, no one died, and the sorceress was rather displeased at my support of the existing order.
Third time, I listened to Lowena's alternate suggestion of how to deal with the situation. She wanted me to murder her fiance so that they could stage a coup d'etat! I find I don't like this woman and suspect she's evil, and most certainly she is an enemy of the state that hired me. In character, I should have attacked here right there, but out of character I went through with it just to see how it would turn out. It turned out that a smaller percentage of people died defending their homes from the invaders than in the first ending, and the sorceress was very pleased with my choice. She called it a triumph of love and peace.
The fourth time, I attacked the murderous backstabbing traitors once I learned of Lowena's plans. There were some custom barks when they fought and I think also when one of them died, which was a nice touch. Lord Garm was stunned, but seemed to consider it to be a manageable choice, and suggested that they could set up the bodies to make it look like it was bandits. However, they didn't get a chance before the enemies attacked, and everyone was killed. The sorceress was furious and gave me a dunce cap.
I think that was all I did. It was certainly interesting to explore the options and ramifications.
I had a try at the other endings. I too had issues with the assasination but it gave the best reward. I'm a hero now ;)
I like modules that give choice like this and, while the module itself is short there's somthing to be gained from trying all the options. The dunces hat is not a terrible item for my druid/ranger as it goes.
I could not get the diplomacy option to work with this character. I have in the past though.
I too did not especially like Lowena, which is an acheivement on behalf of the Author. A good npc should provoke a reaction.
I was suprise that the killing led to the flames cutscene. if the text was right them the Damarians killed thier own, assuming the deaths were staged correctly.
PJ
This line by Garm is correct, though I probably could have written it better. He is calling Horatio a capable man, in comparison to the PC, whom he also refered to as a capable man/woman when he suggested the PC look for Lowena.
The Enchantress is supposed to kiss the PC, male or female.
I'm glad you liked the investigative quest. incidentally, visiting the wreck doesn't break the quest, but you can only examine the bodies if the quest is active. I should probably revise this for just such an occurance, so players can get a 'second look.'
You experienced all four endings. Incidentally, if you play as a wizard (or perhaps other arcane caster, not sure about a bard), there is an extra option when talking to Lowena and Horatio.
It's interesting to read everyone's take. I have some broad comments about Lowena and the mini-module series, but I think I'll wait until some more folks chime in, unless anyone has specific questions. I will add, though, a recommendation that players examine and read all the descriptions.
The reason that killing Lowena makes the Damronians attack is that, in their view, Garm was responsible for her safety, even from her own people.
There's a reason the Enchantress likes the most unsavory solution the best.
I'm glad you guys don't like the character of Lowena! She's not really supposed to be likeable, so I guess I succeeded in something! In my playthrough, though, I was a little dismayed how quickly the 'honorable' Horatio went along with her plans. C'est l'amour, I guess.
Yes, I thought it was possible that the dialogue was intended to put all emphasis on the word "capable" and ignore the "man" part, but if I were standing right there and could respond with anything, I would have said "I'm no man." Same if I were playing a dwarf, who might take issue with the word "man", since in some settings like LotR, "man" refers specifically to humans. If I were writing it, I would have used a gender-neutral word after "capable" to make sure the wording didn't distract from the message, like "a capable agent", or "a capable person", etc. (All civilised races in D&D -- human, dwarf, elf, gnome, etc. -- are considered "persons").
The kiss was no problem, and wasn't sure if it was intended or not.
I agree, PJ, that it's good to be able to create a character that a player will actually have feelings for, including if those feelings are negative.
Horatio may be "honourable", but his knightly order was explained as being neutral, and if neutrality breaks, it could go either to good or evil. Neutral is only one step away from evil, while good has to take two steps. I think his complicity is believable.
Wow, lots of great discussion here! It's great to have the author around to provide some background too! I'm going to answer the discussion questions in this post, and then I might work back through and chime in at a few places to respond to the discussion that's already going on.
In each module, the highlights were definitely the difficult decisions that you are faced with as a player. Often times, when choices are presented in a module, there's a clear good/neutral/evil dichotomy. That's not necessarily true here, assuming you fail the persuasion check (I did). And the fact that in Lowena, at least, the decision you makes has such profound (and rather unpredictable!) impacts on the endgame makes it all the better.
Again, I think it was how dramatically the decision you make in Lowena affects the endgame. Like the others, I did save before the decision point and then replay the module from that point to see the other choices once I finished my first run. I loved how important the consequences were.
I thought it was ok. I didn't really have a problem with Lowena, per se, but I the "love at first sight" schtick doesn't play well with me anymore. I felt like pulling a Kristoff from Frozen: "You mean you agreed to marry someone you just met?!?"*** Not that arranged marriages are much better, but they seemed more believable. The fact that the paladin agreed to eschew his duty for this girl made me think that something sinister was afoot, like maybe Lowena was actually the Enchantress in disguise? Jezla hinted above that something was going on, so I'm looking forward to that reveal! :)
I also felt like the module needed more things to do. The Decision is great, but I felt like a few more events along the way would break it up a bit better, and lead to a more interesting experience.
That said, I had fun playing this module!
*** I have two young girls who love Frozen, so I've seen it dozens of times. Sorry, it's just part of my vocabulary now. Also, fwiw, I thought it was excellent the first 5 times I saw it.
I thought the visuals were really nice! I loved the little touches, like the seagulls flying around the cliffs, and the cat in the bar. Garm's castle was beautiful, both on approach as well as its view of the bluffs down to the sea. There were great music choices throughout as well. The cutscenes at the end, especially when Garm's territory was burned to the ground, were great.
Finally, I **loved** the custom setting. Vast empire that recently fell into ruins, leaving only tiny fiefdoms to squabble amongst themselves among monuments to the lost nation? Great stuff.
There wasn't much of it, and what was here was really easy for my monk. The fight with the paladin, if you make that decision, was more difficult.
I mentioned that I thought a few sidequests or even random encounters would help round out the module. I also would have liked a merchant in Garmish, though it wasn't really necessary either. I was surprised that I didn't need some kind of identification (maybe a note from Lord Garm?) to enter Fangard Keep.
One typo on a dialog option with Lowena (iirc): "Why did you countrymen attack?" (your)
Ok, so usually I don't put together well-developed backstories for my characters, preferring to just go with a vague concept for each PC and then adjust to the themes of the modules. In this case, however, I had just encountered a monk NPC while playing Saleron's Gambit 3, and was inspired to follow suit when I realized that I needed a level 1 character and had never--ever!--played a monk in NWN2. The Monk in SG3 was of the Broken Ones, a order of monks dedicated to Ilmater. Therefore, I decided that my PC would be of the same order.
So, this shaped how my character responded in the modules. In Humble Beginnings, he killed the goblins after on a brief hesitation. It's not because he was bloodthirsty, but because releasing them could mean suffering for others down the road. It's racism, but goblins are nasty. The second one, however, was harder....:
In Lowena, my monk was really stuck. He tried to persuade Lowena to follow through with her duty, but was unable to do so. Attacking the two in cold blood wasn't an option, and he heeded the warnings about unrest should he permit Lowena to simply shirk her duty. He couldn't allow the people to suffer. Therefore, it was with great relucance that he agreed to assist in the consiracy to assassinate Lord Garm. I thought of this as his sacrifice for the greater good, though in this case it was his ideals that would suffer rather than some physical trauma. In any case, I thought it was a great quandry.
I think it's interesting to see how different players can have such different playstyles. I like to dabble with all of the different classes, and get bored playing the same character class repeatedly. I also really enjoy small party/solo combat in nwn2. The larger squad combat is fun too, don't get me wrong, and is a great aspect of nwn2's combat engine. But I get a lot of enjoyment from the smaller-scale fights. I think it's because it allows me to focus more, it plays faster (fewer commands needed, if nothing else), and because it forces me to put my character in tougher spots than s/he otherwise would be in. It might also just be all the time I've spent in nwn1 mods as well.
In any case, I realized that I'd never played a monk in nwn2 somehow, so I decided to give that a go this module. I leveled him in my little character creator module in between modules, and he seemed more than powerful enough for the second module. I don't think the combats are intended to be particularly challenging, though, so he was probably just about correctly equipped.
Well, you seem to be responding to my report of my playstyle, so I'll just give a little more info on that. I've played almost all classes, too. That's how I know I have certain definite preferences. However, D&D rules are not designed to make solo combat viable or fair with standard encounters -- they're made for a party. Solo low level wizards especially are a recipe for disaster. But to play an armoured sword wielder is no solution for me. It's very boring for me to just slash through enemies with no tactics or anything other than click, wait, and watch. I don't want quick, small-scale fights; I want tactical party-based battles as in the Gold Box and Infinity Engine games and ToEE. So I prefer to play as a wizard -- as the brains of the group who needs the physical protection and support of a party.
Tchos, yep, I was responding to you. I wasn't trying to critique, just making conversation. :) Everyone has her/his own preferences, and you definitely have to play the game the way that is the most fun for you!
I do think that, while D&D certainly was designed with a party in mind, it can be adapted to work just fine for solo combat with many (most?) classes. I think nwn1 demonstrated this quite well, as most modules have you playing solo or with a henchman or two. I played a nwn1 sorcerer, for example, across a dozen modules into epic levels, many of which did not feature henchmen. That said, nwn1 did make a big consession to help the low-level wizard: familiars that doubled as animal companion tanks, and 24-hour summon creature spells. Those make a big difference. But I've played a lot of nwn2 modules, as well as some pen and paper dnd (3rd, 4th, and now-5th edition) with fewer than the traditional 4-5 person party.
In any case, all I was trying to say is that I have a lot of fun in modules that allow both smaller parties as well as larger parties. In the Maimed God's Saga, for example, you play the entire game (mostly) as a party of two: your cleric plus a ranger. In Trinity, on the other hand, your character is accompanied by a classic party: fighter, cleric, rogue, and wizard for a five-person team. Tales from the Lake of Sorrows varies from a two-person party (your character plus a rogue, usually) to a large party and back throughout the series; I loved that variety.
In any case, different strokes for different folks, right? I'm not trying to convince you that your preferences are "wrong," just pointing out that not everyone agrees. I don't want to discourage authors who want to write a more intimate adventure that focuses on the PC alone, or the PC plus a companion. Those mods might not be for everyone, but some of us really enjoy them.
Yes, I'm quite aware that not everyone agrees with my assessment, and I don't think it needs to be pointed out to me, much like I don't feel the need to always let NWN1 fans know where I disagree with their assessments. I didn't say one word about NWN1, because I predict it would start a pointless argument.
All I said was that I prefer party-based combat, and that D&D rules are built with parties in mind. I wasn't saying Jezla's modules should have included parties, either. When I wrote what I wrote, I consciously put emphasis on the fact that these are my preferences and my opinions, so that it wouldn't cause arguments.
My game design philosophy is very much the "different strokes for different folks" that you mention. I don't force a party onto the player due to my preferences. I go out of my way to allow players to play as they prefer, such as with or without a party, from 1 to 6 members.
Tchos, ok, sounds good! I did not mean to offend--was just trying to spark some discussion. If I did offend you, my sincere apologies.
FWIW, your module is next on my list of modules to play. I'm looking forward to it a great deal, because even from just following your blog over the past few years it is very clear how much effort you've put into every aspect of your module.
I like to mix it up but invariably find myself prefering the fighter classes. Often the ranger because the pure fighter is so limited in skill points. Many of my fighters waste point on int up to 14 in a attempt to fix that issue, or I sometimes dip a class to widen my options :)
I don't know why but I am not fond of clerics, druids are okay but again I mostly find myself with fighter types.
I like soloing for the most part. It is rare that modules have enough flesh in the npc's to make a large p[arty woprthwhile. Thus I prefer fewer, well fleshed out, companions to larger parties of pre generated. Perversly I like the SoZ system but then i am in sole control of the other players and that seems to suit me well enough.
I tend to build what I would like to play but I think most builder do that. After all we have to play the bloody things enough in testing :)
Lowena therefore, suited me. I have never played druid ranger before and it worked well enough. leveling up four levels in the module meant there was not too much time invested so I felt at ease playing something different. I would have liked a little more combat. Some bandits in the lovely highland area, or a chance to off road in the mountains could have been nice but generaly the play itself was good.
I missed the man reference. Must have been elsewhere for that one. I seem to remember another gender specific comment in there though.
There could be an opportunity for the lord to be fleshed out a little. I felt guilty for assasinating him but not on a personal level. That could have been another opportunity to develop. Also perhaps some words of regret talking to the captain afterwards?
You know, I almost put some wolves in the North Road area, but in the end decided it might interfere with players examining the bodies on the road, so I decided to leave them out. I think it makes the area feel more desolate.
Incidentally, PJ, you play style sounds similar to mine.
I've got some longer comments to make later tonight after we get back from the fair.
Yes, I'm sorry, too. I should not have taken umbrage. Back to the discussion of Jezla's fine pair of modules. :)
Okay, I've got some time now to put down some thoughts that I hope will be interesting, regarding their inspiration, aims and development.
Humble Beginnings
The goal of this mod was actually fairly simple: build a module, complete it, and release it. I had started a number of projects in NWN1 and 2 tool sets, all of which were rather grand in idea, but without plan or definition. I became frustrated trying to work on a big project, especially after seeing so many large scale projects being released. So i said, "Heck, I'll just build something intentionally short that I can finish that will also help me learn more about using the toolset." I settled on a small, encounter-type module that would only take a few minutes to play, but that would offer a choice, multiple rewards, and quality polish. I don't really know what made me think of having the girl be an Enchantress in disguise, but it reflects the idea that adventurers often deal with things that are not what they seem.
Lowena
Lowena had a more specific inspiration, chiefly a song by Celtic music performer Heather Dale, "May Queen," about Lancelot going to escort Guinivere to meet Arthur and falling in love with her. By the time I started this mod, I had solidified the mini-mod concept: a series of short modules that can be played in one sitting, of various levels, that could be used to pass time between playing larger modules, or played in series, that would tell a story over their course. In addition, I decided that these mods would be made using the base toolset, no custom content, to make them accessible to new players. Lowena was much more challenging, as I decided to set it in a custom setting, which i had not fully fleshed out, but which has its roots in the above mentioned aborted projects.
The ideal way to play Lowena, that is the path which will reveal the most information and dialog, is this:
This module was very fun to build, and took about two months' steady going to complete. Initially, it did not include a starter inn, but some players complained about being subject to combat immediately after loading, so I added an area that would allow new characters to level up and spell casters to memorize spells. The most challenging part of the build was the area for the battle cutscene. I had duplicated the castle lands area to add the soldiers and effects, but I kept having corruption issues that nearly brought the whole project to a halt. I finally managed to get it done, and I don't think I've opened that area in the toolset ever since!
I think what I enjoyed most about the build was putting in all the background details and information, stuff that an impatient player might not find, but which would enrich the experience for the completionist and explorer. I also enjoy spending time on things that are often overlooked in more ambitious projects: descriptions (did you read the cat's description? - hint hint), lighting and weather, and skill checks that can affect the outcome of the game.
A word about the Enchantress and the future of the Series
One commenter on the old vault thought that I limited myself by tying in the Enchantress character. I would argue, however, that she is an essential part of the overall story, and will feature in all of the mods in this series. She is a much deeper character that she seems in these first two episodes. I hope her reaction to the PC's solutions in Lowena indicate this a little. Some of you mentioned that she reacted in a somewhat unexpected way. She has her own motivations and goals, and has specific reasons for choosing to involve herself in the PC's life. She is testing you, and preparing you at the same time.
I currently have outlines for two more mini-modules in this series. I hope to continue work on them, but I also want to devote time to my larger project, Legends of the Dalelands.
Episode 3 is called "A Far Cry from Home," and will allow you to learn more about the Enchantress and her interest in you. It will be combat heavy, as it is inspired by the FPS "Far Cry."
Episode 4 is called "The Village of Lost Play," and will reveal more about the setting, and will present the PC with a choice that foreshadows the climax of the series. Indeed, it could mean a premature end to the series, making a great ally or a powerful enemy.
I know this was a long post, but I'm tickled that you guys enjoyed my little modules so much. I hope you found this interesting, and of course, I'll answer any other questions you guys might have about the mods, characters or the setting!
My other post is way too long, so i'll reply to this here:
Combat is not really a focus for this series of modules. In fact, I intentionally designed it to be easy, or avoided altogether. I wanted the focus to be on the story and the characters, not the fighting. This decision also allows the module to be solo-ed by spellcasters without need for henchmen.
The next mod in the series will be a hack-and-slash mod, but even then, i'm planning the combat to be incidental to the overall story. It may not suit everyone's taste, but it's a reflection of how I like to play. When I play, combat is really not my focus, as I'm actually a poor tactician most of the time. I tend to play the tank that plows through enemies on easy!
You have also mentioned how Lowena could use some side-quests. It's a valid point; however, I feel that adding more quests, while making the mod seem more complete, would bump the play time past what I consider appropriate for a mini-module. In a sense, these mods are taking side-quests and making them the main quest!
Thanks for this and your prior comment to me! I love reading about authors' thoughts behind their modules, why they made the decisions they did, etc. I'd be glad to play more in your series, and of course I am looking forward to your larger campaign as well.
It sounds like I might have missed the merchant in Garm. I did speak with the citizens and noted that they were not particularly impressed with him. This was a nice bit of...well, foreshadowing isn't quite the right word, but it helped lead the story to the decision of what to do with Garm.
Sorry also to hear about the corruption issues you were getting with the endgame cutscenes. I did thing that these were a major highlight for the module, especially those that played when there was a bad outcome.
Yeah, the merchant is in the castle courtyard, to the right of the gate. You should visit him, his conversation is entertaining, I think.
The troubles with the battle area were worth it, as it seems to be a highlight for most who've played.
I was beginning to think I'd killed the thread with my long post!
As someone who has also started a lot of projects without finishing, and is finally starting small scale, I really appreciated reading your post Jezla. I wasn't paying attention to this thread because I only play NWN1, but I just wanted to add my thanks.
You're welcome, Verilazic!