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Project rating and votes

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Shadooow
Project rating and votes

Ok so I am starting a new thread for this.

I also like the need to make comment to rate, however this can discourage peoples to votes which we definitely don't want, do we? And keep in mind that the comments would have to be remake to show the rating given at top (like at old vault).

What we definitely need is a popup window with a list of all peoples who voted and how they voted, so the trolls can be seen, identified and finished with a fire or acid. Don't think it has any sense to try control troll/hate voting. As long as its visible its ok. Alternatively, this window could also list a comment to the rate, though this would probably have to be a bit limited in size which doesn't have to be enough.

Btw ModDB is requiring comment only for a vote 10 (possibly 1 too - I havent rated such low). But, from what Ive seen a ten star votes are standard here and anything less is treated badly so...

 

Also, currently many projects are lacking votes. We should make voting rewarded, by VK I guess. Or by making a separate ladder for voters, though this can get out of hand and result in brainless vote spaming so thats only viable if we enforce comments for votes.

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Proleric
Proleric's picture

Even with a secret ballot, it's possible to show the voting profile, for example

http://proleric.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13&view=viewpoll

I find the profile more useful than an average, because troll votes are obvious and can be discounted.

NWN and DAO adventures at http://proleric.com/

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KICK BONG
KICK BONG's picture

how to determine a troll vote discount? oh i missed something.

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bannor9

I have always had issues with votes, most particularly "10's"  as they are just phanboise without true thought.  Sure, I will give a 10, but usually, I try for a 9 which is nearly perfect but shows that there is ALWAYS room for improvement.  Anyway, I prefer folks to give some sort of edumacated or experienced type of vote vs a strict like/no-like type of vote.  However, I know getting folks to give truly reasoned votes is next to impossible.  Heck, getting them to vote at all is next to impossible.  out of thousands of downloads on the old vault, most vote counts were less than 1% of total downloads.

 

At this stage of the game for well more than 99% of the files that will ever make it back onto this site, they will simply be x-fers from the old vault, and will not likely ever get a new vote anyway.  For the truly new stuff, that is created by the current crowd, as small as that crowd is, the vote count is always going to be very low as we just don't have a large crowd anymore.  Each time we have gotten screwed by Bioware, now EA, we have lost more folks, we lost our other fan created sites of finding pw's already as well, at least, no one is managing the site anymore, it is only running because it hasn't crashed.

 

Basically what I am saying, is I think that just maybe we are worrying a bit too much about the voting in general, and likely should just leave it the way it is.

 

Ahh well, there is no sense in me expressing my opinions on this bit regardless as I can truly be considered a hardass when it comes to these types of topics.  Please just disregard my earlier post, as I was in a foul mood at the time anyway.





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KICK BONG
KICK BONG's picture

voting already nonrelevant in nwvault. feedback - that's what we need

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GCoyote

The problem I saw with the 1-10 system was that if voters didn't/couldn't explain a vote in the comments it was very hard for the authors to figure out WHY they liked/hated their work.  In some cases it looked like the poster just didn't like the style and gave a low score to an otherwise well done module.

What is the possibility of a composite voting system?  Users rate each project on a number of limited scales and the site totals the points to give a 'rating'.

  • Original Story 0 - 4
  • Original Artwork 0 - 4
  • Technical (bug-free) 0 - 4
  • Writing 0 - 4
  • Style (can't put my finger on it but ...) 0 - 4

Or some variation on this concept. 

<b>"Please VOTE on the content you play."</b>

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Sir Adril
Sir Adril's picture

I like the idea of a composite voting system, if it's feasible. It will give good feedback to creators, and allow players to see whether there's anything that's a deal breaker for them prior to downloading (e.g. a lot of people don't like technical errors, others place high importance on proper spelling and grammar)..

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Shadooow

thats excellent suggestion, but its incompatible with old votes - how do we deal with those?

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Werelynx

Overall vote(here would be old vault votes) + section votes (like music and sounds, writing and dialogues, plot, ambiance etc.) keeping separate, not making average section votes into overall vote.

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Sachie

I would define "Style" as all the little design details and how things were implemented.... such as modules where NPC merchants are in their shops at all hours of the day and night like they are zombies (should I kill them in that case?) in comparison to modules where NPC merchants actually leave their shops at some point in the evening, can be seen walking around outside and will go home.

 

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Werelynx

..which on the other hand might be a hassle if there is no way to fast-forward time (common) or there are time-limited quests (less common).

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Sachie

According to the moderator(s), a 1 vote on something is automatically a troll vote.  It doesn't matter if you hate something to the extent that you'd rather walk barefoot over rusty tacks and make it clear that you hate it that much.  It's still trolling.  I don't know about this site but on every other website I have been on before this, trolling results in an automatic banning from the site.  Some will give you a warning for a first time offense (if they think you're dumb and didn't know better and more importantly, won't do it again if warned), while others will just ban you the first time.  As someone who is just a user, this makes me feel that I should only vote 10 on things with no regards to how I actually feel.

So I'm going to suggest that maybe voting should be disabled completely or set where only admins/moderators can vote while us random users can only leave comments.

 

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Shadooow

Is 1 a troll vote or not? I don't know but as I said - there is no reason to deal with it - just make rating visible so anyone can see, hmmm  Sachie rated 1, three others rated 10 (btw 10s smells as well). That  should give everyone an insight. If the votes are 10,10,10,1 then user spots the last vote wasnt adequate, if the rating will be 4,5,3,1 then it was appropriate vote.

EDIT: Now Im realizing I rated 1 few mods on old vault myself. Among others the TAD's hitpoint color change which nearly get to HoF with more than 20 votes of peoples from Aenea all giving 10s. Felt I need to balance it devil.

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Sachie

If a moderator says a 1 is a troll vote, then a 1 is a troll vote.  I was warned twice, so changed my vote to a 10.  I do not need a third warning to know that 1 votes (even with comments to explain said 1 vote) is going to fall into some realm of prohibited conduct on the basis of trolling... so long as we're allowed to have an opinion in the comment box, I don't mind giving everything a 10 regardless of if I actually like it or not. =/

 

Most websites have some form of anti-trolling rules.  For example one other site I'm on states it as "intentionally interfere with the operation of [name_of_site_removed] or any Member's enjoyment of it, including intentionally posting inflammatory statements to get a reaction ("Trolling");" as the site in question is primarily a forum site with some games tacked on. It also makes it clear that if you troll, you get banned.  This is my logic behind suggesting that us general public users not be allowed to vote....

Because it's more than a tad unfair to set people up by giving them the option to vote however they want to, but they better not vote a 1 on anything!  Or maybe voting should be limited to admins, moderators, hall of fame winners, contest winners... but not the general public.  I may know now not to give anything a 1 vote, but what about those people who fall under "Who's New."  (Also wouldn't it also be a lot easier for the moderators if they don't have to worry about moderating votes?)

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leo_x

This isn't a direct reply, just my opinion.  It would be better to just dump the rating scale and use Recommend/Don't Recommend.  It eliminates troll voting, is less ambiguous.  You can still hate vote tho.  The main value for rating scales is for bucketing review comments, if we can't easily see who voted what and why then I don't think it serves much purpose.   

 

Anyhoo, here are some lively discussions on the subject of rating systems:

http://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/23002/ratings-3-stars-vs-5-stars-w...

http://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/4200/rate-vs-like-dislike

http://davidcel.is/blog/2012/02/01/why-i-hate-five-star-ratings/

 

An nice little article on how to implement sorting by average rating, which is a very worthwhile read if the vault uses a rating system and uses it to rank projects:

http://www.evanmiller.org/how-not-to-sort-by-average-rating.html

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leo_x

It would be a good idea for the vault to create some voting guidelines, whatever system it ends up with.  Me personally, I think it's a troll vote if the 1 rating is motivated by some moral opposition, even worse if the person never tried it.  Not everyone likes the same things, no one has to use anything they don't want to, so ratings in scripts/models should be on technical merits alone.

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Sir Adril
Sir Adril's picture

All of those were interesting reads. Thank you for linking. I do question whether the articles came to the correct conclusion on people tending to vote to the extremes though, since I'm actually more of a moderate voter. Since neutral votes are not particularly meaningful, and tend to skew things from the extremes to the center, I'm not convinced an odd number of rating options is the best way of doing things.

While a binary system seems a natural way to combat this, I have a suspicion it may result in fewer votes being cast, since there's no way to indicate a difference between like and love or dislike and hate.

A four star system allows slightly more granular results, while eliminating the average inflating, and generally meaningless, neutral vote.

Unfortunately, because the old vault used a highly granular voting mechanism, changing to a different voting system is likely to be met with resistance, since at first, it doesn't allow meaningful comparison between new and old content. That said, if a new system was implemented, the old material would eventually get up and down voted just like the new content, allowing more meaningful comparison, it would just be a little difficult comparing new vs old content early on.

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Werelynx

I certainly understand your bitterness and while others consider it a troll vote I wuld say you had your reasons. Especially that you explained what you hate about the script.

If I understand correctly, before you voted, it was not specified this was for pvp for balancing and stopping cheating. Such a fix would not make sense in single player - if player wants to cheat then let him(her).

 

On the other hand you can expect perfect 10's and 1 votes because some people vote binary or want the author to feel bad/good. Or if the module has physical representation of romance kiss

I rarely vote 10, but I had voted once or twice 1, especiallywhen there was files to be removed at the oldie or simply the thing was REALLY offensive.

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Sachie

Even if something I would find highly offensive, I would still feel obligated to vote either a 10 because if I voted how I felt then a moderator might come along and tell me that I'm trolling again, which I would take as a warning that I better go change my vote.  (Especially after the comment in this thread that any sort of vote based on a moral objection is automatic trolling no matter what... so offensive content is automatic grounds for voting a 10.)

A 1 vote to me was supposted to mean that I disliked a module enough that I didn't finish it, deleted it off my hard drive and cannot be coaxed into downloading it again to give it another try... or in the case of a script, I'll never play any module that uses it.  It's nothing personal.  Maybe someone would feel that my plotting to create an override to replace spiders with bunnies or ladybugs or anything else not spiders would be worthy of a 1 vote on the basis of that using said override would be interfering with what module creators intend to have as part of their module's content.  And you know what?  I'd agree totally because it is interferring.  It's not personal unless someone goes around voting 1 on everything I upload (that isn't for the migration wizard.)

The module I'm going through now is one of those Hall of Fame modules with a score rating of 9.73 on IGN's site.  However I've already ran into two pretty serious bugs -- one forced me to completely restart the module from the beginning one time if I wanted to do a specific side-quest while the other bug forced me to go back to a prior save point three times.  In the case of the one where I had to reload saves, it was along the main story path so no -- I had no choice but to reload.  This isn't the first time I've played this module and have run into these two bugs almost every time (but the module is obviously fun and does a lot of things right or I wouldn't keep replaying it.)  An honest vote would be an 8 -- because of the two bugs I mentioned plus some lesser bugs that do have work-arounds that don't involve reloading or restarting.  However we're talking about a Hall of Fame module.  If I have to give things I don't like a good score then voting anything less than a 10 for a Hall of Fame module might also be trolling, since there's no option to vote 9.5 and say (took 0.5 off score for some serious business bugs -- here they are.  *gives a bug list*)

Hopefully you see what I'm getting at here.  It really isn't about bitterness (as I don't feel that way at all) -- only that any sort of numerical voting system is going to be worthless if the average user is not going to be permitted to vote how they feel to the point that it sort of makes more sense to remove it completely and have people leave comments.  That's all I was trying to get at. :)

 

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Werelynx

I have banned my fair share od troll at the oldie and I assure you, you are not a troll. If any mod has objections or tries to block you, send me an email and I will unblock you.

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